Comments on: Belgrade Pride Cancelled http://www.balkanfile.com/belgrade-pride-cancelled Fri, 05 Feb 2010 21:36:36 -0600 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: Obelix http://www.balkanfile.com/belgrade-pride-cancelled/comment-page-1#comment-1142 Obelix Wed, 11 Nov 2009 18:29:43 +0000 http://www.balkanfile.com/?p=966#comment-1142 "We’ve had equal rights for all citizens since the formation of the former yugoslavia in 1945, no matter the sex/race/ethnicity/religion. We respected human rights around the world, and refused to have relations with some nations who did not. Why not build on this “tradition” then?" Erm... O RLY?! Informbiro? Nationalization? Banning religious festivals? Closing/demolishing churches? Class enemies? Taking away civil rights from those with different opinion? One party? One TV channel? Public enemies? UDB? Refused to have relations? Like with W. Germany? Or Israel? But we had them with Arabic nations (no woman rights whatsoever, no other religions, great laws - you cheat your wife, they cut your guess what), USSR (gulags, Siberia anyone?), China, Iraq, Libya, countries with presidents for life... YA RLY... Why not build something on that tradition... LOL! Get some facts first :D Minorities? Communists in USA just after WW2? Or black? Or Native Indians? Cubans perhaps? Maybe Mexicans? Aborigines Down Under? N. Ireland Catholics? Roma people in Italy? Oh, p-lease! "Human rights are something that are universal and common to all of us." Us? Who? Speaking, laughing, breathing, sex, food, drinks... might be universal... you go explain women rights in Afghanistan. Or secular country in Saudi Arabia. Wearing crosses/Jew caps/Muslim scarves in French schools. Different opinions in Myanmar. Speed limits on Ilse of Man. Food in Ethiopia. :D Oh, p-leeease! :D Lol, I could go on and on all day. :D “We’ve had equal rights for all citizens since the formation of the former yugoslavia in 1945, no matter the sex/race/ethnicity/religion. We respected human rights around the world, and refused to have relations with some nations who did not. Why not build on this “tradition” then?”

Erm… O RLY?!

Informbiro? Nationalization? Banning religious festivals? Closing/demolishing churches? Class enemies? Taking away civil rights from those with different opinion? One party? One TV channel? Public enemies? UDB?
Refused to have relations? Like with W. Germany? Or Israel? But we had them with Arabic nations (no woman rights whatsoever, no other religions, great laws – you cheat your wife, they cut your guess what), USSR (gulags, Siberia anyone?), China, Iraq, Libya, countries with presidents for life…

YA RLY… Why not build something on that tradition… LOL! Get some facts first :D

Minorities? Communists in USA just after WW2? Or black? Or Native Indians? Cubans perhaps? Maybe Mexicans? Aborigines Down Under? N. Ireland Catholics? Roma people in Italy? Oh, p-lease!

“Human rights are something that are universal and common to all of us.” Us? Who? Speaking, laughing, breathing, sex, food, drinks… might be universal… you go explain women rights in Afghanistan. Or secular country in Saudi Arabia. Wearing crosses/Jew caps/Muslim scarves in French schools. Different opinions in Myanmar. Speed limits on Ilse of Man. Food in Ethiopia. :D Oh, p-leeease! :D

Lol, I could go on and on all day. :D

]]> By: dancing to the lambada http://www.balkanfile.com/belgrade-pride-cancelled/comment-page-1#comment-1141 dancing to the lambada Wed, 11 Nov 2009 16:46:05 +0000 http://www.balkanfile.com/?p=966#comment-1141 Obelix, the parade wasn't about any society telling any other society what to do. It was about empowering and uplifting a minority that have always faced discrimination. Tradition as you call it has nothing to do with sexual politics. I would think tradition is something grander and far more beautiful than that-tradition is music, festivities, literature; not practices which amount to discrimination or hostility. Cultural relativity is bullshit when it comes to human rights. Human rights are something that are universal and common to all of us. Would it be ok for countries to deny women their full rights, based on an excuse that it is against tradition? Attitudes towards homosexuals vary from one society to another. However, societies are not stagnant-they evolve, change and develop. I would like to see all ex-yugoslav nations heading towards greater acceptance of their LGBT communities and awarding them rights on par with the rest of society. I agree that nothing should be pushed on us..however WE should be the ones doing the pushing for this. It is not only the western nations who would want to see greater LGBT rights but many yugoslavians themselves. And what you said about democracy, remember: a society is not judged on how it treats its majority, but how it treats its minority. We've had equal rights for all citizens since the formation of the former yugoslavia in 1945, no matter the sex/race/ethnicity/religion. We respected human rights around the world, and refused to have relations with some nations who did not. Why not build on this "tradition" then? Obelix, the parade wasn’t about any society telling any other society what to do. It was about empowering and uplifting a minority that have always faced discrimination.

Tradition as you call it has nothing to do with sexual politics. I would think tradition is something grander and far more beautiful than that-tradition is music, festivities, literature; not practices which amount to discrimination or hostility.

Cultural relativity is bullshit when it comes to human rights. Human rights are something that are universal and common to all of us. Would it be ok for countries to deny women their full rights, based on an excuse that it is against tradition?

Attitudes towards homosexuals vary from one society to another. However, societies are not stagnant-they evolve, change and develop. I would like to see all ex-yugoslav nations heading towards greater acceptance of their LGBT communities and awarding them rights on par with the rest of society.

I agree that nothing should be pushed on us..however WE should be the ones doing the pushing for this. It is not only the western nations who would want to see greater LGBT rights but many yugoslavians themselves.

And what you said about democracy, remember: a society is not judged on how it treats its majority, but how it treats its minority.

We’ve had equal rights for all citizens since the formation of the former yugoslavia in 1945, no matter the sex/race/ethnicity/religion. We respected human rights around the world, and refused to have relations with some nations who did not. Why not build on this “tradition” then?

]]> By: Obelix http://www.balkanfile.com/belgrade-pride-cancelled/comment-page-1#comment-708 Obelix Tue, 29 Sep 2009 18:19:01 +0000 http://www.balkanfile.com/?p=966#comment-708 I was replying Lora, not everybody in Western Europe. I'm not that big idiot, you know... ;) But your reply gave me a good idea. Afaik, it wasn't mentioned yet anywhere, so here it goes (might be a good insight on part of our mentality): When there is a case like this: gay parade, anti-war march, save polar bears walk, you name it... foreign embassies feel need to support it. Because, their countries support such things back home, they fight for it everywhere, they think it's their duty... to give one more voice for achievement of some big goal. Which is all good. And, there is a "but.."...when you have a case which polarizes this society and embassies stand for what they think is all good - people here don't like it. They take it as "divide et impera". Mostly because western countries have been leading 2 wars against us, 10 - 15 years ago. And we all still remember how was that, in details. Maybe this deserved another topic, but who knows when would that happen :) I was replying Lora, not everybody in Western Europe. I’m not that big idiot, you know… ;)
But your reply gave me a good idea. Afaik, it wasn’t mentioned yet anywhere, so here it goes (might be a good insight on part of our mentality):
When there is a case like this: gay parade, anti-war march, save polar bears walk, you name it… foreign embassies feel need to support it. Because, their countries support such things back home, they fight for it everywhere, they think it’s their duty… to give one more voice for achievement of some big goal. Which is all good. And, there is a “but..”…when you have a case which polarizes this society and embassies stand for what they think is all good – people here don’t like it. They take it as “divide et impera”. Mostly because western countries have been leading 2 wars against us, 10 – 15 years ago. And we all still remember how was that, in details.
Maybe this deserved another topic, but who knows when would that happen :)

]]> By: Caldeia http://www.balkanfile.com/belgrade-pride-cancelled/comment-page-1#comment-699 Caldeia Tue, 29 Sep 2009 10:12:07 +0000 http://www.balkanfile.com/?p=966#comment-699 Obelix, Please do not believe all of Western Europe is a part of Bush regime. We respect your traditions and know they are different in Serbia, but you have to let go of the thought that we all are the same in Western Europe as well. I have a feeling that this discussion is more about serbs hate against westeners and that is not the focus. That in fact is a tradition itself and should change. There are good people in this world as well. Obelix,

Please do not believe all of Western Europe is a part of Bush regime. We respect your traditions and know they are different in Serbia, but you have to let go of the thought that we all are the same in Western Europe as well.

I have a feeling that this discussion is more about serbs hate against westeners and that is not the focus. That in fact is a tradition itself and should change. There are good people in this world as well.

]]> By: Obelix http://www.balkanfile.com/belgrade-pride-cancelled/comment-page-1#comment-696 Obelix Tue, 29 Sep 2009 08:02:28 +0000 http://www.balkanfile.com/?p=966#comment-696 No traditions, eh? A man and his son, wake up before the dawn, go to woods, chop down an oak tree, take it back home at christmas eve and party goes on... whats that if it lasts for more than 1400 years? Not a tradition? Greening rivers on St.Patrick's day? Eating turkeys? No, this all were retorical questions. "Who cares? This is a western..." Since topic is about Serbia "this" would mean Serbia? If that was your thought, you're wrong. This isn't western. This is eastern. Pick up a map and a history book. So, if you on western have your games' rules, we here have ours. Orthodox civilization - different rules, different morales. Respect it. We don't tell you what to do. You do tell us what to do. It's so Bush-ish. Finally, what do I think of the "parade" and stuff around it? Every men should be able to protest and fight for their goals, in the way it doesn't hurt any1 else, or public morale, etc. What LGBTs wanted wasn't "samba de janeiro kind of gay parade", but a political protest, to explain public about their state, rights, difficulties, etc. I'd support it. But they called it "parade" - fatal error. In western, that works, here it works other way. Call it political protest, don't look or act like clowns, don't use "in your face" tactics and don't have leaders already hated by everyone else. And you'll have a chance. Obama says "we'll listen". How about to try it now? No traditions, eh? A man and his son, wake up before the dawn, go to woods, chop down an oak tree, take it back home at christmas eve and party goes on… whats that if it lasts for more than 1400 years? Not a tradition? Greening rivers on St.Patrick’s day? Eating turkeys? No, this all were retorical questions.
“Who cares? This is a western…” Since topic is about Serbia “this” would mean Serbia? If that was your thought, you’re wrong. This isn’t western. This is eastern. Pick up a map and a history book. So, if you on western have your games’ rules, we here have ours. Orthodox civilization – different rules, different morales. Respect it. We don’t tell you what to do. You do tell us what to do. It’s so Bush-ish.
Finally, what do I think of the “parade” and stuff around it? Every men should be able to protest and fight for their goals, in the way it doesn’t hurt any1 else, or public morale, etc. What LGBTs wanted wasn’t “samba de janeiro kind of gay parade”, but a political protest, to explain public about their state, rights, difficulties, etc. I’d support it. But they called it “parade” – fatal error. In western, that works, here it works other way. Call it political protest, don’t look or act like clowns, don’t use “in your face” tactics and don’t have leaders already hated by everyone else. And you’ll have a chance.
Obama says “we’ll listen”. How about to try it now?

]]> By: Lora http://www.balkanfile.com/belgrade-pride-cancelled/comment-page-1#comment-633 Lora Thu, 24 Sep 2009 13:26:55 +0000 http://www.balkanfile.com/?p=966#comment-633 I can only echo and support what Adam and Caldeia said, so I'll just mention two things... Obelix: There is no such thing as "tradition". Traditions are invented, and people choose to emphasise particular aspects of tradition to suit what they are trying to say, and to give your view more political credibility. An awful lot of things - most things - can be "traditional" if you want it to be. So, sorry, I happen to think that "traditional Serbian culture" is a poor excuse for telling LGBTs to "keep it in the bedroom". Whatever "traditional Serbian Culture" is has changed quite dramatically in the past 30 years, with certain parts of the narrative (re)emphasized to suit a particular political discourse. Related to this... Men in skirts. Who cares? This is a western, modern construct, dominated by what is currently socially acceptable. 100 years ago, it was frowned upon for women to wear trousers in Britain - this only started to change during the First World War, and the idea of women wearing trousers was radical until the 1930s. Right up to the 1970s, it was thought to be a bit "tomboyish" to wear trousers. I am wearing trousers today, and no-one thinks that i'm radical, or a tomboy. Go back 200 years, and across Europe you will find that all upper-class children (boys and girls) under the age of five wore dresses. Look to parts of the Middle East, Asia and Africa, and you can see skirt or dress like outfits being worn. Granted, if my boss did his presentation tomorrow wearing a skirt, I would probably do a double-take, but it would not influence my judgement of his ability to do a very good job, and nor would it affect my view of his sexuality. It might influence my judgement of his legs though!!! I can only echo and support what Adam and Caldeia said, so I’ll just mention two things…

Obelix:

There is no such thing as “tradition”. Traditions are invented, and people choose to emphasise particular aspects of tradition to suit what they are trying to say, and to give your view more political credibility. An awful lot of things – most things – can be “traditional” if you want it to be. So, sorry, I happen to think that “traditional Serbian culture” is a poor excuse for telling LGBTs to “keep it in the bedroom”. Whatever “traditional Serbian Culture” is has changed quite dramatically in the past 30 years, with certain parts of the narrative (re)emphasized to suit a particular political discourse.

Related to this… Men in skirts. Who cares? This is a western, modern construct, dominated by what is currently socially acceptable. 100 years ago, it was frowned upon for women to wear trousers in Britain – this only started to change during the First World War, and the idea of women wearing trousers was radical until the 1930s. Right up to the 1970s, it was thought to be a bit “tomboyish” to wear trousers. I am wearing trousers today, and no-one thinks that i’m radical, or a tomboy. Go back 200 years, and across Europe you will find that all upper-class children (boys and girls) under the age of five wore dresses. Look to parts of the Middle East, Asia and Africa, and you can see skirt or dress like outfits being worn. Granted, if my boss did his presentation tomorrow wearing a skirt, I would probably do a double-take, but it would not influence my judgement of his ability to do a very good job, and nor would it affect my view of his sexuality.

It might influence my judgement of his legs though!!!

]]> By: Bibi http://www.balkanfile.com/belgrade-pride-cancelled/comment-page-1#comment-630 Bibi Thu, 24 Sep 2009 10:49:32 +0000 http://www.balkanfile.com/?p=966#comment-630 To me, the bottom line is this: for whatever reason, the security forces did not want to/were unable to offer the parade's participants maximum security. That is awful, but no surprise. I am also put out with 'soccer' violence both at the stadium where 'fans' enjoy themselves by demolishing seats, security forces, and each other, and also by the hate crimes committed by such 'fans' like we've recently seen her with a French fan who (so it appears...) did little if anything to deserve to be beaten nearly to death. As I write this, he is still in critical condition. I have no problem with homosexuals, at least no more than with certain hetereosexuals. I'm just the kind of person who doesn't like to see heavy demonstrations of affection in public by heteros or gays. A kiss, a hug, okay, but not kissing while straddling each other on a public bench. I believe people who appear to have issues with gays' parading, renting apartments, or adopting children have more issues with themselves than with those they condemn. To me, the bottom line is this: for whatever reason, the security forces did not want to/were unable to offer the parade’s participants maximum security. That is awful, but no surprise. I am also put out with ’soccer’ violence both at the stadium where ‘fans’ enjoy themselves by demolishing seats, security forces, and each other, and also by the hate crimes committed by such ‘fans’ like we’ve recently seen her with a French fan who (so it appears…) did little if anything to deserve to be beaten nearly to death. As I write this, he is still in critical condition.

I have no problem with homosexuals, at least no more than with certain hetereosexuals. I’m just the kind of person who doesn’t like to see heavy demonstrations of affection in public by heteros or gays. A kiss, a hug, okay, but not kissing while straddling each other on a public bench.

I believe people who appear to have issues with gays’ parading, renting apartments, or adopting children have more issues with themselves than with those they condemn.

]]> By: Global Voices Online » Serbia: No Gay Pride This Year http://www.balkanfile.com/belgrade-pride-cancelled/comment-page-1#comment-621 Global Voices Online » Serbia: No Gay Pride This Year Wed, 23 Sep 2009 22:32:22 +0000 http://www.balkanfile.com/?p=966#comment-621 [...] Cafe Turco, Balkan File and Anegdote write about the cancellation of this year's gay pride in Belgrade. Cancel [...] [...] Cafe Turco, Balkan File and Anegdote write about the cancellation of this year's gay pride in Belgrade. Cancel [...]

]]> By: lina http://www.balkanfile.com/belgrade-pride-cancelled/comment-page-1#comment-541 lina Wed, 23 Sep 2009 10:12:19 +0000 http://www.balkanfile.com/?p=966#comment-541 sigh !! bad page for serbia ! sigh !!
bad page for serbia !

]]> By: Caldeia http://www.balkanfile.com/belgrade-pride-cancelled/comment-page-1#comment-524 Caldeia Tue, 22 Sep 2009 11:59:36 +0000 http://www.balkanfile.com/?p=966#comment-524 Excellent TopGear! =) Excellent TopGear! =)

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